To those who follow events in the Middle East, I cannot suggest strongly enough to take with a few grains of salt reports of “atrocities” by Israel. Check your sources, know if they are just a propoganda machine with some agenda other than the truth. That’s the difference between honest reporting and being a shill (or for the well-intentioned yet misinformed — just reacting emotionally.) I’m sorry to say, the Muslim world is known for exaggerating and lying where Israel is concerned.

Carol,

I urge you to watch a video by Dennis Prager, “Israel in a Time of Terror” available at his internet store — here.

Dennis is a supporter of Israel, so he has his bias. Everyone does, and in my opinion, bias does not disqualify someone from having a valid point of view, as long as they are honest about it. Dennis is a respected scholar, a radio talk show host. His radio show is aired all over the USA. He is a man who does his best to look at issues from all angles. Back sometime around 2000, I can’t remember exactly when, he visited Israel for a week or so. This is a time when buses were blowing up, sometimes on a daily basis. He interviewed Israelis regarding their views on the situation.

He did not find one Israeli who said they hated the Palestinian Arabs, even though there were approximately 10-40 Israelis were being murdered and maimed, sometimes on a weekly basis during that time, and no one knew if their bus would be the next one. Same situation at restaurants. This is the time when the Sbarro Pizzeria was blown up, murdering families, babies. It was a horrific time. The result was the often criticized (by the left) fence Israel has put up, resulting in a dramatic reduction in bus and restaurant bombings.

Israelis hated the terror then and now. They were and are angry. Having said that, it is obvious by conversations with the average Israeli, that they are exquisitely, painfully aware of the brainwashing that these people are subjected to from infancy on, the parents by their leaders, and the children by their parents. Israelis know, in that sort of environment, combined with the crushing poverty, these abused people hardly stand a chance. Israelis have a lot of compassion for the Arabs in the region. Don’t mistake the tough talk and the decisive actions Israelis must take, in order not to be destroyed by their enemies, for hatred. Overall, Israel is a compassionate nation.

If you watch interviews with Arabs and Israelis prior to the Gush Katif expulsion, you will find that the Arabs who worked for the farmers in Gush Katif were friends with them. They had to be careful to whom they opened their hearts in this regard. These people are victims many times over by their own leaders. They are being used callously by them. They live in unimaginable oppression. It is my firmly held conviction that the only people in the world who care, in any meaningful way, about the future of the Gaza and Palestinian Arabs are Israelis.

Be well,

Ellie Katz

I´m sure Israel has its own reasons. I´m sure you all suffer. I´m not patronizing or trying to lecture you about tolerance.

I´m from Brazil, where arabs and jews coexist in peace. But we have our own problems, violence, social injustice and corruption. I know that a foreigner´s point of view may sound detached to daily reality because I´ve heard some about my own country – but also, sometimes they can light up a dark corner.

(and no, I don´t agree with PT´s affirmation that what Israel did was comparable to the natzis)

Probably mine won´t, but with all my heart I wish I could help.

When you say “West”, I think you end up putting all western countries on the same levell, which is not true.

Anyway, I´d like you to know that I´ve been studying Holocaust for sometime now. My masters is on Paul Celan, a romenian jew who had his parents killed in Auschwitz. He´s my favourite poet and I have a great respect for jewish culture.

In fact, I was married to a jewish guy and almost converted – we splitted before that.

So, please, don´t take my commentaries as hostiles and I´m sorry if I got carried up. It´s a very polemic situation and, from where I stand, I see that hating is a big issue (for both sides). But I am not an Israeli, I can´t judge you.

I will come back to read your posts and see the other side. It´s very important, you´re absolutely right.

best regards,

Carol

Carolvaz,

I find your point of view amazingly unrealistic. Since when is pointing to history proof of a weak argument? “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” George Santayana, The Life of Reason (1905-1906), vol. 1

Comparing my words to Nazi’s and racists (neither side of the conflict is a race, they are religions) is the MO of the extreme left. If any party needs to be compared to the Nazi’s, it is the Radical Islamic movement. They collaborated with the Nazi’s during WWII. It is not difficult to find photographs of the the Grand Mufti shaking hands with Hitler, or to find the Fuehrer referring to his friendship with Al Husayni or vice versa. There was a time when it took hard work on the part of Al Husayni to motivate the average Arab man to want to kill Jews. For the most part, I blame leadership, Arab and Western, not the little man. Most of us little people only want to live simple lives with our families.

Co-opting the tragedy of the Jewish people by adopting the language of the Holocaust is equally transparent.

The question is not “Why do they hate us so much?” The question, my friend, is “What do they want?” Their hatred comes from the teachings of Radical Islam, not anything you or I do. I must say though, the excuses you give to Hamas seem like “aid and comfort” to the enemy. They know this is a nation of “fryarim” You know what that means in Hebrew? Suckers.

I lived in Israel during the Shamir and Begin years. They were the most peaceful years in the history of modern Israel. The extremist Muslims, the purists, in the midst of the ordinary people who only wanted to raise their families in peace, knew they couldn’t mess with Israel. Arabs and Jews weren’t tripping all over each other in affection, but there were friendships and there could have been more, if only the “all knowing West” would have listened to and respected the requests of those with vested interests in the attainment of peace in the region.

There was the occasional stoning, every six months or so, maybe a Molotov cocktail tossed at a bus, and sometimes a kidnapping of a soldier. Everyone in Israel, Arab and Jew, knew that even with the occasional conflagration, Israel and the Administered Territories were much, much safer than average midwestern city in America. The children of Arabs and Jews played freely in the streets, without fear of harm from anyone…not like in America, where parents are terrified some pervert is going to snatch their babies from them.

You don’t have to believe me…but I lived it. I believe me. All Israelis and Arabs of good will know what I am saying is essentially true. So…we don’t believe you. Your narrative is not the truth, thus it will not offer us what we desperately need, what you claim to hope for us…peace.

When I lived in Israel, I followed the news very closely. Each day, even as Yasir Arafat was declaring a “Palestinian State” from Tunisia, I listened to the radio and I heard with my own ears as the local Arab population practically got down on their knees in tears, and BEGGED the “Powers That Be” to allow them to elect local representatives from the local population to represent them in the upcoming peace talks, where autonomy would be discussed. But that was not to be. The worst thing the West could have done to the local Arab population in what was then the Administered Terriitories, was to bring Yasir Arafat and his murdering henchman off the beaches of Tunisia, resurrecting his nearly dead influence within the Arab world.

The blame does NOT lay at the feet of Israel, and it does not lay at the feet of the innocent Arabs in the Land. It lays at the feet of the monsters who brought Arafat back into center stage. It was done deliberately, in order to provoke a fight. They wanted what is happening, and it so happens that the unfortunate tendencies within Islam play into their hands perfectly.

As a direct result of that cruel act, Arafat came to Israel (born in Egypt BTW), fleeced the people of any wealth or resources they may have had, and murdered or drove away anyone within the Palestinian Arab population that may have been in any way willing to negotiate with Israel. Peace loving Arabs were viewed as collaborators, as traitors, and were dragged away into the night, many not to be heard from again. Some were publicly humiliated, strung up and hung if they were fortunate. A more grisly fate awaited others. Many of these men weren’t even “guilty” of collaborating with Israel. They were tried in the street, judged by rumor.Their blood is on the hands of the architects of Oslo.

We all heard the stories. Many originated within the ranks of friendly Arabs, witnesses to the new brutality, something that dwarfed anything Israel could have cooked up. Christian Arabs were being threatened with death unless they converted to Islam. Or their daughters were harassed or raped. Many couldn’t take it and left. And if a Muslim converted out of Islam and it was discovered…forget it. His life and the life of his family was over.

The West betrayed both the Arabs and the Jews by bringing such evil murderers in as “negotiators.” I lived it. My family was on the front line, sitting in buses that could have blown up at any moment. I have been threatened by jihadis at websites simply for suggesting that women don’t have equal rights under Islam. I have had insane jihadi Arab bus drivers careen the bus into opposing traffic, only to turn back to their own lane at the last minute, flirting with the thought of the mass murder of the entire bus of passengers. I have seen the wild, hateful look in his eyes, as I held my small child, wondering if we will make it to our destination. I have been threatened with with being blown up. I have looked into the eyes of Hevron Arabs, as they first gazed at my children and then met my eye. What I saw was empty hatred and murder. If I hadn’t been on an armored bus, I would not be here to write this response to you. I never made it to Machpelah to pray that day. I have had jihadis make jokes about my body parts dripping from buildings. And I still KNOW that there are good Muslims and Arabs out there, desperately wanting peace.

But Arafat elevated and encouraged the haters and murdered or otherwise silenced the peaceful men among the Arabs of Palestine.

I am no racist and I will not be lectured about tolerance. The West, Bill Clinton, those who devised Olso and the “Road Map” to hell, destroyed tolerance when they allowed the good men and women in Palestine to be murdered by Yasir Arafat and his heirs. There will come a day when all those evil people, who destroyed beautiful Israeli and Arab babies, children, mothers, fathers and grandparents on their way to school, to work, to pray, to play, to shop…with their lies, their false promises of peace, promises they never meant or even cared about, will pay for their deceits.

And now the West continues with Hamas. Bleeding heart, well intentioned, uninformed extreme leftists and anarchists feed Hamas, who’s sole reason for existing is to destroy Israel. They force families to store munitions under their homes. They steal the peoples fuel, brought in from Israel and use it to make weapons against Israel. Then they bring cheap fuel in from Egypt and sell it at inflated prices. If anything could be worse than Arafat in theft and murder of their own, it is Hamas. They purposely put their military operations in heavily populated areas so Israel has no good choices. Israel can allow their children to be daily bombarded with deadly rockets and not respond. Or, they can engage in urban warfare, amongst a population held hostage by murderers, liars, brainwashers of babies.

The Israelis and the children in Gaza and the West Bank are left to suffer, to clean up the West’s mess. If meddlers would have stayed out of the conflict between Israel and her neighbors, it would have been settled 50 years ago or sooner.

Be well, and read from someone else’s point of view with an open mind. I watch videos from all points of view, and read from all points of view. Because I don’t accept your reading list on a given day does not mean I won’t look at it tomorrow, or that I don’t read writings exactly like what you have linked to me.

I have a very serious interest in knowing my people are not sinking to the level of their enemies. They are not perfect, but they still have my confidence.

Ellie

I don´t like Hamas. I don´t defend their extremism, their violence, their hate. But you have to stop and ask yourself: “where all this comes from? Why do they hate us so much” – if you really think the issue here is hate, as you made clear before. They were elected, which means part of the population supports them. You have to step into the other side´shoes and try to understand from their point of view. Just then you´ll start to comprehend the wholle situation and not just your side of the question.

And only then, with a broad view, you´ll see better and be closer to the real solutions for this old problem.

It´s a shame you didn´t understand the quote. It´s from the text by Neumann. The link is still there, if you ever change your mind.

I really hope one day, for the sake of both israelis and palestinians, you will finally be able to seat down and deal with problems by talking, not bombing and hating each other more and more, as it is now.

Your viewpoints are not “annoying”, they just differ from mines. Part of living in a democracy is exactly being able to respect and cohexist with different people and ideas.

First of all, welcome to my blog carlovaz (forgive me for not putting this in my original response…I’m a little tired out at the moment). I appreciate the time that you’ve taken and the care you’ve put into your response to my post. And I appreciate the compassion you feel for the innocent civilians in Gaza. I think the overwhelming majority of Israelis would concur, the tragedy is massive.

Ellie quoted: “But make no mistake, the war (…) between Israeli society and Arab society, between Jewish values and Islamic values, is a war between the civilized and the barbaric, respectively.”

carolvaz’s statement:“That´s beyond racism. A sentence like these could easily have been spoken by a nazist back in the 30´s. How can you say that “jews are better than muslims” just like that? This is racism, pure racism.”

Ellie’s Response: Then Winston Churchill was a racist, and so is everyone that was ever opposed to fascisim, communism, and totalitarianism. Most of the Arab world has created a radical Islamic society that is totalitarian in nature. Jewish values are better than radical Islamic values. Jewish values are not totalitarian.

The difference between a radical Islamist and a moderate Muslim are clear. The former refuses to countenance any competitors…all must be vanquished and Islam must rule supreme in the end. They can achieve their means through peace or war, directly or via subterfuge, but they are determined to achieve their goals. The latter would like to reform Islam, likes the idea of living in a liberal democracy where all religious adherents, of any faith share equal protection under the law. The moderate Muslim does not need to dominate.

carlovaz’s question: “How can you even try to justify the bloodshed in Gaza?”

Ellie’s response: How can you excuse the constant targeting of schools and civilians in Israel for decades, and specifically southern Israel? How can you excuse Israelis being forced to live in bomb shelters for years at a time? How is it NOT a war crime for Hamas to do this, but it IS a war crime for Israel to finally respond?

carlovaz: More than 1.300 casualties, half of them civilians. How can you explain that? Oh, let me see: right to self-defense, right?

Ellie’s response: Right. There must be a clear victor for any war to end. The reason the war between Israel and her neighbors continues from 1948 until now is because outsiders continue interfering. If Israel could win clearly, there would be deterrence.

carlovaz: A quote for you: “Israel (…) must defend itself at the least cost to others. It should keep its families from harm by giving the Palestinians complete control of their external borders and allowing the creation of a Palestinian state. After this, if Israel is attacked, it can respond. Before, its response is not legitimate self-defense but continued aggression. ”

Ellie’s response: The only sentence that is logical in your cited quote: “Israel (…) must defend itself at the least cost to others. The rest contradicts the first and is total balderdash.

carlovaz: In case you want to read the whole article: http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann01132009.html

Thanks for the reference. I have no need to respond to every person I disagree with on the net. In the past, I have tried to reason with the “multicultural crowd” and have found it impossible to come to a meeting of the minds. I find I’m insulted, my words are twisted, my posts are changed. My goal is to inform, not to argue. The truth is much easier to make a case for than fabrications. There is plenty of material on this site that makes my case.

Feel free to browse and comment. I advise reading “Elya’s Ten Blog Laws” in case my viewpoints continue to annoy.

That´s beyond racism. A sentence like these could easily have been spoken by a nazist back in the 30´s. I´m horrified. How can you even try to justify the bloodshed in Gaza? How can you say that “jews are better than muslims” just like that? This is racism, pure racism.

More than 1.300 casualties, half of them civilians. How can you explain that? Oh, let me see: right to self-defense, right?

A quote for you: “Israel (…) must defend itself at the least cost to others. It should keep its families from harm by giving the Palestinians complete control of their external borders and allowing the creation of a Palestinian state. After this, if Israel is attacked, it can respond. Before, its response is not legitimate self-defense but continued aggression. ”

In case you want to read the whole article: http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann01132009.html

Mutual.

Ellie